tbh I would probably only buy a few each mk2b or c as I can't keep spending money and already have a lot of coaches.  I already have a load on mk1 or mk2a.

huo hoppers and mdo / mdv I would like most

and syphon g with the vertical planks!


tim

Quote from: Yet_Another on February 23, 2023, 12:45:26 PM
I don't know. What are the differences between a Mk2a, a Mk2b & a Mk2c?

There have been 8 sub-types of the Mk2:

Mk2 - 1958 (aka Mk2z or Mk2s)
Featured pressure ventilation (i.e. roof vents and opening windows), wood panelling and vacuum brakes (no air-brakes as built). I believe the corridor connection resembled that on a Mk1

Mk2a - 1967 (Farish model)
Dual air/vacuum brakes and different gangways to Mk2z.

Mk2b - 1968 (Accurascale in OO)
Centre door of Mk2a omitted, wrap-aroud doors at the end. Slightly longer than the Mk2a. Toilets relocated to one end of the coach (rather than in opposite corners). The vast majority were initially allocated to the Western region.

Mk2c - 1969 (Accurascale in OO)
Built with the intention of being retro-fitted with air-conditioning. Internally the ceiling was lower as a result. Later built toilet windows don't have a vent, being a single pane of glass as per air-con Mk2's. Roof vents different to earlier types. Initially allocated to the Midland region running with class 50s and the early AC electrics.

Mk2D (Poole era Farish)
Built with air-con. External gang-way doors are orange.  Last type of BR coach to include FK.

Mk2E
Toilet reduced in size to increase number of passenger sears. On TSO this meant they were relocated to diagonally opposite corners. External gang-way doors are cream.

Mk2F (current Farish)
Redesigned air-conditioning meaning fewer boxes on the underframe compared to Mk2d and Mk2e. Most fitted with Mk3 style seats. Smaller toilets as per Mk2e. External gang-way doors are cream. Change in bogie dampers compared to Mk2d and Mk2e.

There will be some variation within the air-con Mk2's depending on the manufacturer of the air-con equipment.

Mk2 Pullman
Built for the WCML, squarer windows than the other air-con Mk2's, and without wrap-around doors at each end. Initially their power requirements meant that they could only run with AC electric locos.


Coach allocations were subject to regional variations - initially Mk2F were generally found on cross-country and WCML workings for example. Similarly when first introduced the Mk2a was very much a ECML vehicle, not spreading to the BR(S) until a few years later. Mk2b were initially used on London to south Wales and Bristol services. Whilst you'd find Mk2a-c in NSE colours, there were no NSE Mk2d-f.
With the coming of the Mk3 and HST all the Mk2a, b & c spread themselves around the country.


There's a great set of photos of the different Mk2 types here:
https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk2-Coaching-Stock


Steven B.

Quote from: Steven B on February 23, 2023, 03:26:45 PM

Quote from: Yet_Another on February 23, 2023, 12:45:26 PM
I don't know. What are the differences between a Mk2a, a Mk2b & a Mk2c?

There have been 8 sub-types of the Mk2:

Mk2 - 1958 (aka Mk2z or Mk2s)
Featured pressure ventilation (i.e. roof vents and opening windows), wood panelling and vacuum brakes (no air-brakes as built). I believe the corridor connection resembled that on a Mk1

Almost!

The prototype Mk2 (FK 13252) was built at Swindon in 1963. It had lots of "Mk1" features - wooden interior, pullman gangways, narrow windows with 4 part ventilators, vacuum brakes, steam heating. What made it different to a Mk1 was its integral construction (a self-supporting load bearing tube) rather than a separate underframe with a body constructed on top. This coach is preserved.

The first production batch of Mk2 were corridor firsts (FK) built in 1964-65, and only these coaches of the "early Mk2" or "Mk2z" had the Mk1 Pullman gangways and 4 part window ventilators - wider windows than the prototype Mk2 but not quite as big as the standard Mk2a windows with the 3 part window ventilators, and they had slightly less rounded corners. They were delivered in Maroon livery or BR (S) Green depending on which region they were allocated to. They also had a mainly wooden interior. Some were steam heat only/vacuum brakes and others were dual heated and air braked, including some converted to disc air brakes for the Edinburgh-Glasgow Class 27 push pull trains. None of these survive as they were the last batch of hauled stock built with asbestos, so were all withdrawn by the late 1980s.

The next batch of Mk2 (or Mk2z if you like) were built in 1966. This included TSO (64 seats), SO (48 seats), BSO, and BFK types, but no more FK. They have the same body shells, windows and gangways as the Mk2a which followed, but had vacuum brakes, dual heat and plain sliding gangway doors (unlike the air brakes and coloured folding doors of Mk2a to Mk2f). These coaches were all delivered in blue/grey livery. In N gauge the Farish Mk2a passes off reasonably well as a Mk2 if you ignore the layout of the brake equipment on the underside, and the incorrect Mk2a folding gangway doors. The Farish "ScotRail" TSO/BG twin pack and "Highlander" Coach pack and Train Set depict use the Mk2a to depict early Mk2 coaches.

Things get a bit simpler from Mk2a onwards as the coaches were all air braked and dual heat (electric heat only with air-con from Mk2d onwards). Some Mk2a (especially BFK) were converted to vacuum brakes later in their lives.

This might seem a bit esoteric and irrelevant for modellers, but characteristics like steam heating and vacuum brakes mean the early Mk2 coaches (including the blue/grey ones) were sometimes steam-hauled in the 1964-68 period and, right throughout their lives, tended to mix in rakes with vacuum braked Mk1 stock, whereas Mk2a onwards were only ever hauled by air braked locomotives and thus wouldn't be steam hauled, and would only mix with Mk1 stock (catering cars etc) which was built or converted to air brakes.

Hope that helps.

Tom.

Quote from: Steven B on February 23, 2023, 09:15:09 AM
Out of interest, how many of those of us who are asking for non-air-con Mk2s would still be asking for them if Farish re-ran their Mk2a more often?
I wonder what proportion of us care/worry about the differences between Mk2a, Mk2b and Mk2c?


Steven B

Hey Steven

I think it would be great if Farish re-ran their Mk2a more often - especially if they made more TSOs, and especially in blue/grey!  But, to me, the differences between Mk2, Mk2a, Mk2b and 2c are quite significant and I'd be a big supporter of Accurascale producing the Mk2b and Mk2c in N; but I appreciate others may never have thought about the differences and don't care at all. I'd also support Accurascale producing Mk2d aircons too (if they every did a OO version first) as these have many differences from a Mk2f.

I guess we all have different passions and interests within the hobby. I have always had much more interest than passenger stock than freight, for example, and would have no idea about the difference between a 9 foot vs a 10 foot wheelbase wagon for example; also I'm lost when it comes to the myriad detail differences within the same class of steam locomotives (top feeds on Black 5s; and types of tender and, RHD vs LHD on Gresley A1, A3 and A4 pacifics being good examples!).

Cheers, Tom.

For me I would purchase at minimum several each of:

NER 20T Hopper
NER 4T Chaldron

Colin.

Quote from: icairns on February 22, 2023, 02:42:09 AM
Wagons
NER 20T Hopper

That's all.

Ian

Ian - me too! do you think we can get enough volume between you me and @PGN .....? I wonder what the MOQ is.

Wondering how many others there are of a similar persuasion as to what constitutes a real railway    ;-)

And I would definitely take NER chaldrons as well...

Cheers,

Colin.

class 66 it is then!

probably a good move but not my era

N gauge is crying out for a decent 66. Interesting that Accurascale have simply taken over the Hatton's tooling.

I'm surprised Farish tweaked the 60 rather than the 66 given the latter's ubiquity. Luckily there's another brand with a 59 in the works, and there's a logical place to reuse some of that tooling 

Given the plethora of current modern n gauge diesel models from various manufacturers & even though the age range of these models is varied, with some better than others, I don't believe the overriding need is another powered model.

What is in short supply is rolling stock and in particular coaches up to railway privatisation.

To encourage Accurascale in N they initially need a high demand quick seller and I would suggest that this is the BR Mark 2's - longevity, varied liveries, wide geographic spread in service.

Yes a personal choice, but given the long term posts here and elsewhere on the web there is a clear high demand. Just look how quickly it took Farish to clear Mk2f stocks, when Farish eventually produce more BR coaches they will fly like the proverbial hot cakes.

Quote from: 43095 on February 23, 2023, 10:39:55 PM
... and would have no idea about the difference between a 9 foot vs a 10 foot wheelbase wagon for example...

I can help you out there Tom.  It's one foot.



Richard

Quote from: cmason on February 24, 2023, 01:02:45 AM

Quote from: icairns on February 22, 2023, 02:42:09 AM
Wagons
NER 20T Hopper

That's all.

Ian

Ian - me too! do you think we can get enough volume between you me and @PGN .....? I wonder what the MOQ is.

Wondering how many others there are of a similar persuasion as to what constitutes a real railway    ;-)

And I would definitely take NER chaldrons as well...

Cheers,

Colin.

Hi, Colin:

Well, according to Mike of Revolution Trains in the Class B tanker thread, the minimum order quantity can vary between 2,500 and 4,000 depending upon the project and the factory.
 
So, it might be a bit of a stretch for just the three of us to get to the minimum quantity for the NER 20T hopper unless more people join in!
 
However, The 2mm Scale Association sell a resin kit for a NER 20T hopper and here is the one I built.  Being to 2mm scale rather than N scale, I found it difficult to satisfactorily fit a proprietary chassis.  I have purchased a second kit with a view to making a better job of the chassis.



Also, BHE sell a white-metal kit (TM-7) for a NER hopper wagon (ex-Thameshead and ex-Highfield Models) but it is very heavy. 

Ian

P.S. The minimum order for livery variations/special orders of a model that is approved for production is probably around 250.

P.P.S. Based on the input above in this thread, the NER 20T hopper is going to finish a long way behind BR Mk. 2 coaching stock as far as general desirability is concerned (unfortunately).

Quote from: icairns on February 24, 2023, 05:53:13 PM

Quote from: cmason on February 24, 2023, 01:02:45 AM

Quote from: icairns on February 22, 2023, 02:42:09 AM
Wagons
NER 20T Hopper

That's all.

Ian

Ian - me too! do you think we can get enough volume between you me and @PGN .....? I wonder what the MOQ is.

Wondering how many others there are of a similar persuasion as to what constitutes a real railway    ;-)

And I would definitely take NER chaldrons as well...

Cheers,

Colin.

Hi, Colin:

Well, according to Mike of Revolution Trains in the Class B tanker thread, the minimum order quantity can vary between 2,500 and 4,000 depending upon the project and the factory.
 
So, it might be a bit of a stretch for just the three of us to get to the minimum quantity for the NER 20T hopper unless more people join in!
 
However, The 2mm Scale Association sell a resin kit for a NER 20T hopper and here is the one I built.  Being to 2mm scale rather than N scale, I found it difficult to satisfactorily fit a proprietary chassis.  I have purchased a second kit with a view to making a better job of the chassis.

Also, BHE sell a white-metal kit (TM-7) for a NER hopper wagon (ex-Thameshead and ex-Highfield Models) but it is very heavy. 

Ian

P.S. The minimum order for livery variations/special orders of a model that is approved for production is probably around 250.

P.P.S. Based on the input above in this thread, the NER 20T hopper is going to finish a long way behind BR Mk. 2 coaching stock as far as general desirability is concerned (unfortunately).

Hi Ian - I didn't know about the Highfield/Thameshead/BHE kit - will have to get me one of those.

The 2mm one - I got one as an experiment but kind of botched the chassis beyond useable and am ordering a replacement. I rather like your NCB livery - inspires me to produce some like that.

BTW - these are my hopper efforts to date:



A pair of NER P4's ( from a Simon Dawson 3D print on Shapeways ) and  and LNER Diag 12 ( Maurice Osborne's laser cut kit ). The P4s are almost correct NER livery except I could not find a transfer for 10 1/2 ton so ended up with 10. The Diag 12s are, of course, dressed as correctly as LNER - I did consider dressing them earlier but the lack of wooden stanchions is very obvious. The laser cut kits are OK - however the sides warped in - not a noticeable issue unless viewed from above and if I build any more I will brace them straight with an internal cross piece before putting the load in which will cover the "scaffold" ( anyway being wooden they need a load of liquid gravity and coal to give them a reasonable weight to stay on the track). The other thing you will note that the left hand of the Diag 12s has incorrect (BR style - refer the design change between LNER and BR 21 ton hoppers ) brake levers - I used the supplied paper ones on the first build but switched to some 3D ones I had handy for the 2nd - far less painful. 

Cheers,

Colin.

PS And yes - MOQs and the BR coaching stock (cannot understand it meself ;-) ) requests will doubtless be an issue. OTOH I was on their site yesterday looking at the OO range. They do seem to have produced a significant number of livery variations of the chaldrons and the 20T hoppers so if the volume is based on the number of basic bodies and not per livery.... I know its not likely but one can always fantasize these things.....

PPPS As you can see I am still on the hunt (no pun intended) for a closer coupling solution....

Hi, Colin:

Nice work on the NER hoppers!

I also tried the NER hopper wagon from Simon Dawson/Recreation21 on Shapeways but struggled with the chassis which is part of the print but it is too narrow to fit N gauge wheels.

More info about the BHE white-metal hopper kit can be found here:

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=45956.msg746090#msg746090

Ian

Quote from: icairns on February 25, 2023, 03:29:01 AM
I also tried the NER hopper wagon from Simon Dawson/Recreation21 on Shapeways but struggled with the chassis which is part of the print but it is too narrow to fit N gauge wheels.

Hi Ian,

So I used the 2mm association wheels "Wagon Wheels: 3 Hole Disc: 6mm dia: 12.25mm axle: N Gauge Profile " P/N 2-027. The shorter axle plus some careful opening out of the bearings to fit brass top hat bearings gave just the right fit. Filled the cavities at the ends with liguid gravity. For NEM sockets I used Ian Morgan ( Siop y Wageni )'s 3D printed ones from Shapeways.




BTW for the laser cut LNER Diag 12 hopper I also inserted brass top hat bearings which, although not in Maurice's, instructions greatly improved the running. Doing that with any of his kits now (or where applicable changing the diamond frame bogies to NGS/GF ones - his wooden ones are very nice but a wee bit femur for regular operational use... ).

Cheers,

Colin.

Quote from: cmason on February 25, 2023, 07:22:32 AM
Hi Ian,

So I used the 2mm association wheels "Wagon Wheels: 3 Hole Disc: 6mm dia: 12.25mm axle: N Gauge Profile " P/N 2-027. The shorter axle plus some careful opening out of the bearings to fit brass top hat bearings gave just the right fit. Filled the cavities at the ends with liguid gravity. For NEM sockets I used Ian Morgan ( Siop y Wageni )'s 3D printed ones from Shapeways.

I, too, tried to use the 2mm Scale Association N gauge profile wheels with the associated W-irons (part no. 2-313).  Unfortunately, I damaged the 3D print during construction and never went back to it.

Assuming Accurascale do not hear our pleas for a RTR NER 20T hopper wagon, I may try again next time I order from Shapeways.

Ian