5MT poor haulage help!

[1936ace]

Having only ever ran my 5mt on the flat test track it could anything. Now that I have finished the track on the branch line out of Barts end to lilyvale I thought I test it with 5 stanier coaches.
Out of the station yard there is a 2% down grade on a 18 inch radius. Going down no issues but on the return it only got a 1/3 way up before it started to slip and stall.
Any suggestions to improve this or is the norm with this loco. On a side not a 37 does it with ease pulling a rake of mk3 coaches and the Ivatt 2mt does it with 3 coaches with ease.
I run br blue era so the steamers are more heritage train tours and the branch with run bubbles and 2/3 card must with small goods and coal trains
Thanks bart

[Dr Al]

Sorry, but this is the worst possible combination - gradient on a curve - the loco has to cope with the slope as well as increased friction rounding the bend.

Not sure what's normal for the 5MT, but modern locos don't always have the pulling power of the older Poole models as they have plastic bodies rather than metal. Check the traction tyres are both ok and that the track isn't oily in any way that's allowing traction to be lost. If the wheels aren't slipping, and it's just grinding to a halt then there's not much you can do other than remove the gradient (which I appreciate may not be an option). N gauge loco motors don't output much torque due to their size - it may be that the 5MT has less due to the ultra small size of the coreless motor - probably the smallest diameter motor ever used in a British N gauge loco!

Personally, I've always avoided any form or gradient for this kind of reason - it's just not worth the hassle for any scenic or trackplan benefits.

Cheers,
Alan

[1936ace]

hi again,

no it does no totally stall. As it goes around the curve it slowly grinds to a halt with the wheels spinning. Just before i ran off to work i gave the new ivatt 2mt a run and it did it with ease( 3 coaches) with 6 it did it but wheel slipped a lot.

Oh just thought as i have a zimo sound decoder in this loco could that be the cause

When i had the track running around the wall of the train room the 5MT happily pulled 12 mk1's

Well i might just have to run small trains as intended as i need the track to bend away to the right away from the station around and then go down to the left. A good excuse to run the small milk trains with a 22
bart

[Zunnan]

I wouldn't have thought that 1:50 on an 18in curve would create such a significant drop in haulage, curved grades really should be avoided but this is by no means an extreme example unless the substructure has some sagging between supports. Admittedly, the 5MT is one of the weaker performers on the club layout. 13 Mk1 coaches is close to the limit with my 3 examples of this model on level track with a minimum 24in radius curvature, thankfully this is the maximum loading we can find for the class on the route we model. The only thing that I can think of that would cause it to drop below the haulage of the 2MT is the length of coupled wheelbase; the 2MT is shorter and so the slight twisting of the coupled wheels on a graded curve has a lesser effect on its traction. I'd actually be inclined to say if haulage was affected so badly, personally I'd look into opening out the bearing of the centre driver so that the weight of the loco acts more positively on the front and rear (traction tired) wheelsets. Alternatively, I'd be tempted to shift the weight balance of the loco back towards the traction tyres by adding weight in to the cab and adjusting the tender draw bar so that the tender pushes the back of the loco down a bit. This latter trick worked a treat on ex-Poole models.

[EtchedPixels]

I am surprised its that bad but the newer steam is not as good as diesels. Stick a 47 or 67 on the back if its a railtour.. or put a DMU chassis in a BG as the support coach !

Alan

[scottmitchell74]

Personally, I've always avoided any form or gradient for this kind of reason - it's just not worth the hassle for any scenic or trackplan benefits.

Cheers,
Alan
[/quote]

Sorry to hear about your problems. I have the same issues with my layout. Stupid 4% grade on 9.75 and 11" curves. So, I've taken to heart the above quote. I will never again have grades in any future layout.
As far as solutions, I don't have any. I'm just here for moral support. I do spend a crazy amount of time and money in trial-and-error locomotive purchases trying to find ones that will haul a decent rake up my stupid grade.

[EtchedPixels]

You only have to find one, and then use it as a banker at the rear. Perfectly reasonable UK steam practice on steep gradients because real steam locomotives were also completely pants at steep gradients

Various things were used as bankers from pannier tanks to the 9Fs (so a Minitrix 9F will do the trick I bet!) or to this beast


World's Largest Railway Wagon (1930)

Not that it's available in model form (nor the wagon.. although that would be fun....)

The U1 garratt in that picture was built to bank locomotives over one of the Great Central Railway banks. It was scrapped in 1955 after electrification solved the problem.

I have a 57' Mark 1 BG which has a DMU chassis in it instead of the coach one. Picked it up on ebay - its quite a nice solution.

[1936ace]

Thanks guys for the suggestions and support

As I said I really run br blue so the rail tours with the steam locos were going to have a dummy 73 stuck on the back so I could happily just swap it for a power loco

The real test I'm not looking forward to is when I complete the west mainline from barts end to zac ton junction it has a long 5mtr 2% grade but is mainly straight with a 24 inch radius curve in the middle

Still surprise at the poor performance though as my mum has grades twice as steep twice as sharp and the old locos from when I was a kid( I'm 42) never miss a best.

Are the union mills locos heavy and therefore better at hauling

On a side note my jinty just arrived and it has the same mini motor as the 2MT and 5MT so will it be no good as well. I was not planning to use it as a main or branch line loco, I got it to use on the private coal line to bring the waging out of the colliery to the exchange siding which is all flat

Bart

[EtchedPixels]

Are the union mills locos heavy and therefore better at hauling

Heavy and well balanced with plenty of weight where needed

On a side note my jinty just arrived and it has the same mini motor as the 2MT and 5MT so will it be no good as well. I was not planning to use it as a main or branch line loco, I got it to use on the private coal line to bring the waging out of the colliery to the exchange siding which is all flat

If it stalls with the wheels spinning then the motor isn't the power limit but the traction. There are not many N gauge locos where you can actually stall the motor without the wheels slipping first.

Alan

[geminijkr]

One further thought is to check the front bogie is not lifting the driving wheels off the track. Run it without the bogie and see what happens. I had problems with my WD on gradients and by adjusting the pony truck spring I improved traction up my gradients substantially (it still stays on the track through double slips). If you want steam haulage then Union Mills is by far the best. My just completed K3 with a modified V2 chassis and Union Mills tender drive is superb up the gradients hauling 32 mineral wagons with ease. I haven't tried it with coaches yet but this is way better than the V2.
Keith

[1936ace]

Well all is now good for some magical reason.
Last thursday i thought i would give it another go after i finished wiring up the control panel and test the new Jinty. We three staniers in tow, it cruised up the branchline incline into barts end without any effort at all.

Next went the Ivatt 2MT and again no issues.

So i hooked up the 5MT and selected speed notch 16 on the powercab and it made it up the grade with no effort at all. So i gave it another go at 12 speed setting and it went even better.

So i have no idea why a week earlier it only got half way up if that and sat there happily spinning its wheel unable to lift the load.

I guess i will just put it down to one of those mysteries

Bart

[lil chris]

I have run my jinty up my gradient wth three coaches no problem,then i tried my 108 dmu and it got stuck. it was then i realised it had been reversed running round my high level the opposite direction,turned it round and straight up no problem.