Electrostar EMU in N

[Greybeema]

If these were offered as a kit of parts would that make it any easier/ cheaper to produce the different classes? 

Chassis would be standard, alternate body parts/roof parts could be supplied as a kit. 

I realise that I am not going to get a 376 (I'm the only one who mentioned it and the body sides are different from the rest of the class) but as we are all modellers it could be an alternative.

[Tank]

Maybe Graham Farish or Dapol will see sense and bring one out.

Sadly I would not count on seeing any more RTR EMUs from these two for a while at least. Farish were reportedly disappointed by sales of the 4-CEP and Desiro. Dapol put the Pendolino "on the back burner" for so long that Ben and Mike had to go down the Kickstarter route to get the project moving.

They were a strange choices in my eyes.....but that's another debate! 

[Adam1701D]

At this stage, this is nothing more than an information gathering exercise and no firm plans are in place. I would like to raise the profile of the Electrostar, so perhaps one of the major manufacturers takes a look.

A lot hinges on the Pendolino kickstarter, which I urge everyone to get behind. I'm sure you could make a quick buck on eBay, if a 390 isn't your top choice of model.

The kit option is more of a possibility medium term. The modular nature of the Electrostar family would make most variants possible with clever tooling and design.

Please keep on voting! 

[JBQFC]

oh yes a 377 for me in both thameslink and southern liveries  2 or 3 sets of each
dummy sets would also be good to have

[Brooksy]

Being a Man of Kent, I like a good EMU so would be interested in these. I echo the comments that dummy sets would also be nice.

And whilst we are talking wishes, NSE/Jaffa Cake is more my era so would love something from those days.

[Ben A]

Hello all,

I know there is an "I would say this wouldn't I" element here, but I genuinely think the fastest way to an Electrostar is to support the N Gauge Pendolino project on Kickstarter.

Without going in to figures and numbers (which I can if forum members want) it's pretty clear that for the manufacturers the financial case for EMUs doesn't stack up.  They've tried - with the 4-CEP and Desiro - and had their fingers burnt. 

They've tried different area, different era, so arguments that they "picked the wrong EMU" or "if they'd done XXX I'd have bought bucketloads" just won't wash. 

To put it bluntly: as a customer base we had our chance, and we blew it.

On top of which, customers are notoriously compromise resistant.  To most people, the 375/7 and 379 look the same.  It's only when someone tells you the windows are different that you spot it.  Yet if a model of a 375 was produced, then released in white and numbered as a 379, I suspect a lot of those who wanted a 379 would still decide not to buy it.

So where we are is that only a more altruistic, non-profit approach is likely to succeed, and that means Kickstarter, or something like it.   

However, as Mike and I are finding out with the Pendolino Kickstarter takes a lot of work and effort to generate publicity, get a website going, generate content for the page, find a manufacturing partner, and so on. 

But the hardest thing will be convincing people to actually sign up for it; to get to even the relatively small number of 800 units.  But if we can, or can come close, the news of a first successful Kickstarter will spread and engender faith in the idea and enthusiasm for more: and that is where an Electrostar project, or something else, could come in.

If you pledge and we fail it costs you nothing (but might make people take the concept seriously if we come close) while if we succeed you get a 9-car Pendolino for the very reasonable price of £255.  And Rapido can't then produce any more until at least 2018...

cheers

Ben A.

[Ben Line 457]

Maybe Graham Farish or Dapol will see sense and bring one out.

Sadly I would not count on seeing any more RTR EMUs from these two for a while at least. Farish were reportedly disappointed by sales of the 4-CEP and Desiro. Dapol put the Pendolino "on the back burner" for so long that Ben and Mike had to go down the Kickstarter route to get the project moving.

If they'd bothered to release even a second issue of each livery a lot of people could be running 8 car sets with different numbers on each rather than two Blue Grey CEP's both numbered 7113 for example.

As for having a 350 released in a number of livery variations but NOT doing a 450.....utter madness.

[Ben A]

Hi Ben,

That's the point I'm making:  if there are people who "would" buy another 350 to run an 8-car set, but are holding off because the numbers are the same, then I believe they are being too picky and giving succour to the manufacturers' claims that EMUs don't sell and mdoern OHLE modellers are too fickle.

The 450 would have come along I am sure if the 350 had sold better.  Model Rail are commissioning one in OO; maybe if they have all the livery research done then the option in N becomes more attractive, though I honestly think at this stage Farish would only do one if a retailer or similar commissions it.  Then again, if the Pendolino is a success maybe they will decide they want some of the action after all....

cheers

Ben A.

[Brooksy]

Without going in to figures and numbers (which I can if forum members want) it's pretty clear that for the manufacturers the financial case for EMUs doesn't stack up.  They've tried - with the 4-CEP and Desiro - and had their fingers burnt. 

They've tried different area, different era, so arguments that they "picked the wrong EMU" or "if they'd done XXX I'd have bought bucketloads" just won't wash. 

To put it bluntly: as a customer base we had our chance, and we blew it.

Hi Ben,

I don't agree with this argument but must argue from my arm chair position of far less knowledge. I think that the dataset available of two EMUs is too small to be declaring "we had our chance and blew it". I really don't see how you can blame people for not purchasing units they don't want in the chance that the unit they do want gets built at some undetermined point in the future. It's the same problem with OHLE electrics in general, until you get that critical mass of people modelling it, no manufacturer is going to take the plunge and start producing all the variants. What Farish really need to do now is to innovate and (from an EMU modeller's perspective) to finish what they have started by producing variants of what they already have (revised 4-CEP, other members of the desiro family) or maybe even the most prevalent unit on the railways (the Electrostar if I remember the quote correctly)...or they could just produce another Class 66 in a different colour.

Cheers,

Brooksy

[Adam1701D]

I still feel that the lack of success for the current Farish EMUs is down to a very poor choice of units and may not be truly representing the so-called "lack of demand" '

This is something that has been discussed before and not totally relevant here.  When all is said and done, it's up to Bachmann how they wish toOn a personal note, I am delighted that Farish have not yet released a 450 yet! 

Wonder how well the Hornby Brighton Belle is doing...?

Totally agree with Ben about the Pendolino kickstarter - everyone needs to get behind this if they can. Even if it's not your cup of tea, the resale potential is high and you should at least make your money back.I shall be watching this with great interest.

I note that Rapido seem able to do quite small batches of differently numbered units. This would be very useful for something like the Electrostar, where some variants may be hard-pressed to reach, say, 250 units.

[Ben A]

Hi Brooksy,

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly - you're right that from a neutral position the dataset is too small, but from the point of view of a manufacturer who invested anything from £300k up on two models that have not sold well, it is the only data that counts.

And from their point of view, we *did* have our chance.  I remember being told by someone from Bachmann at TINGS in maybe 2009 that they were taking what they felt was a huge gamble with the 350, and that there were lots of naysayers within the company who said it was a bad idea.  The problem is, poor sales have borne out the negativity.

And while no one blames people for not buying models they don't want, from a manufacturers point of view can we blame them for choosing not to invest thousands in more models that we still *might* not want?

cheers

Ben A.

[Ben Line 457]

Getting back to the main topic of the thread, Electrostar's are a real gap in the market at present. Living on the Sussex coast they are my bread and butter on the 4'8.5" so would want a Southern liveried 377 over just about anything else (apart from a ready to run 4-CIG).

I've followed a member of Worthing MRC's blog where he's built 377's in 'OO' - for Worthing MRC's 'Loftus Road' layout using moulded cabs he mastered himself and moulded sides modified from Bachmann 170's.

The cabs at least are available on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Resin-Electrostar-Cabs-Class-375-377-172-379-EMU-4mm-scale-OO-gauge-/191398299725?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2c903a484d

I've also looked recently at some of Etched Pixels more recent carriage releases - I think the GCR Barnums are an example - where there is a 3D shell of roof ends and floor - with etched sides rather than a complete coach shell/

I was wondering, if you borrowed a bit of inspiration from both if you'd be able to do a good 3D Cab,a basic shell of roof, floor and ends (could you get away with two shells one with Panto recess and one without? cutting one end off for a cab if building a DMB) and a series of sides? Might be easier to accommodate 379's, 377/6's and 377/7's that way.

[Ben Line 457]

That's the point I'm making:  if there are people who "would" buy another 350 to run an 8-car set, but are holding off because the numbers are the same, then I believe they are being too picky and giving succour to the manufacturers' claims that EMUs don't sell and mdoern OHLE modellers are too fickle.

Hi Ben,

Although I can see where you're coming from I don't agree 100%. dapol and farish seem to release different numbers for the same basic livery on a regular basis on Steam and diesel locomotives. The recently released Westerns are available in a number of identities in Rail Blue already and this must encourage more sales.
If a couple of years down the line they were still peddling say 'Western Harrier' as the only example in rail blue I think a lot of people would be complaining on here and hopefully to dapol as well.

I think the other thing when it comes to EMU's especially is that they do need to realise their potential a bit better.
Personally one of the appeals of N gauge is the chance of running full length trains, A powered CEP set and an un-powered CEP (or even BEP) as an add on would give scale length a chance without having to fork out the full price of a motorised set to buy a second or even third unit.

I'd be interested to see sales figures for some of the Dapol dummy diesels, I can't see the commercial sense in a dummy Hymek for example but could in a dummy EMU - or indeed any of the DMU's currently available.

 

[Ben A]

Hi Ben,

What you're saying is making my point for me - the reason you're seeing the different liveries of diesels is that the first releases sell and so new ones get done!

If the 350s had sold, we'd be seeing new versions of those too!

Also, I suspect Farish are wary of releasing dummy 350s and 4-CEPs because they're powered by a single power bogie. Perfectly adequate for a 4-car train, but might struggle with 8 especially up an incline. The 6-car Blue Pullman was released with two power cars, I believe.

But again, your post is telling Farish you won't buy what's out there, but want them to tool up something very similar instead.  I accept your right to do that, but don't be surprised if the manufacturer, who has overheads and salaries to pay and a profit to make, isn't exaclty jumping at the idea!

Cheers

Ben A. 

[BudgieJane]

But again, your post is telling Farish you won't buy what's out there, but want them to tool up something very similar instead.  I accept your right to do that, but don't be surprised if the manufacturer, who has overheads and salaries to pay and a profit to make, isn't exaclty jumping at the idea!

Really? So the manufacturer says that they know nothing about the prototypes of the models they're making.

If I'm building a model of a South West Trains station, do they really expect me to run a 350-class overhead EMU instead of a 450-class 3rd rail EMU? That just ain't going to happen. Although I might buy some of Captain Electra's vinyls to convert from one to the other.

As for those living on the Kent and Sussex coasts, those like me who live in south and south-east London, and those who live in between, and who want to build models based on our local stations and lines as they are today, and who have the room to run full-length trains, we need those Electrostars (and Networkers, but not so many of those), and the sooner the better.