Are exhibitions making our hobby elitist

[NeMo]

I will probably be shot down in flames here but I would have to disagree with a lot of the comments made in this thread. I simply don't get the race to the bottom and I really don't like the phrase elitist or particularly rivet counter, as it is almost always used in a derogatory fashion.

I don't think you'll be shot down in flames, and in fact I agree with you about rivet counting being used pejoratively by many modellers. I prefer to say that "rather than count the rivets, make sure all the rivets count" -- in other words, that the impression of the railway created is faithful and engaging.

To take the example of the front end of 'Western' locos. Oftentimes models of these were criticised, and I'd say fairly because they weren't faithful and didn't evoke the impression the real thing had. That would be rivet counting in the right way. But criticisms about the type of battery box catch on these models is to me the wrong sort of rivet counting. On a 2 mm model nobody is going to worry about them unless actively comparing them to close-up photos.

Expand this to entire model railways. If you're modelling a GWR branchline then yes, attention to detail is what creates the authentic impression. The right sort of cars, the right sort of locos, the right sort of rolling stock. But at the same time a typical branchline might have one train an hour; hardly exciting stuff! Imagine a war movie where nothing happened for days at a time and then there was 2 minutes of frenetic activity followed by another few days of nothing. Closer to reality, but hardly good filmmaking. Model railways are a sort of movie-making, so speeding up things to create an engaging narrative is important.

Cheers, NeMo

[grumbeast]

Just to weigh in here,

I don't think the standard of the layout matters as much as the standard of the exhibitor and they're willingness to engage with the public.  I've been amazed by the standard of some of the layouts Ive seen since I've been back in the UK and totally underwhelmed by the willingness of the exhibitors to even give me the time of day.

The last group I belonged to was in Canada and we deliberated chose to use the Bendtrack standard where you have no choice but to be out from behind the layout amongst the public.  All this central operating aisle stuff just continues to promote an us and them environment, I've seen so many layouts where you can't even see the operator.

If your exhibiting then I think you have a responsibility to engage.  Personally I find inspiration from both exquisite fine scale and as best as I can manage layouts, but regardless I'm put off by lack of enthusiasm and engagement.

This is another area where I think we have a lot to learn from North America, and yes, you do need trains running, an exhibit organiser should make this a requirement of participation.

[d-a-n]

There are some right pedants and oddballs when it comes to railway and railway modelling fans, I don't think we'll ever really get away from this!
Luckily this doesn't extend to most I've met who exhibit! If you an exhibitor, you're probably on the more sociable end of the spectrum, possibly part of a club and you're doing a great job by being the ones getting the hobby out there! It is pretty much only the exhibitors who have the power to make things change with what the public consume at exhibitions. I like it when clubs have a dedicated spokesperson on the layout who can field questions, even if the gaggle of operators are having a huddle with a cup or tea and a biscuit!
The standard for layouts in all scales, be they finescale/EM gauge layouts or not, has gone up and up over the years and I see nothing wrong with wanting to run prototypical trains to match the beautifully created surroundings. The timetabled running is not to my taste and I can see how it would put people off and even put off some who are just getting into or back into the hobby, but for some, it adds a layer of realism, usually to a great looking layout. I don't know whether you can enforce a no-timetable policy at exhibitions but it might be a disincentive for exhibitors who've spend thousands of hours and cash building an amazing layout specifically to exhibit and run to timetables -  maybe have a no-timetabled running time-slot at peak times of the day...

I see what you say about returning modellers - but you have to admit that if the kids today don't see something interesting now that in later years returns to them, the majority just won't be there in later years ...

Great point Mike.

Layouts aimed at kids which are interactive are probably the most effective way to introduce children to the hobby. However, these kids are being taken to the exhibition presumably by someone who has already introduced and shared their hobby with the child - so that base is already kind of covered? Perhaps clubs/organisations/individuals wanting to go down this route need to provide 'aspirational' and interactive layouts with lots of playability and things to do as a way of boosting interest in railway modelling. The only exhibition layout I remember vividly from my childhood in the late 1980s/ early 1990s is an O gauge hump shunting puzzle layout I could play with at a Hove exhibition. Any wonder I wanted to go down the route of hands free coupling and easy-street Kato with its remotely switched points and magical turntable...

Maybe rewarding exhibitor's public engagement through having 'mystery shoppers' at exhibitions would be a step towards improving the public's experience of model railways!

[red_death]

I am paying to see trains running on layouts, not for a static display;

Actually you are paying for hall hire, insurance, and reasonable expenses for the exhibitors.  The exhibitors are not getting paid to run a layout for the public - they give their time and effort free of charge.

I thought the article referred to in RM was mostly a load of tosh - the comparison between a few hours long concert and a 2 day show being particularly inappropriate. As for the implication that we should all wear shirts and ties to satisfy the author's views of smart 

I've been operator, demonstrator and show manager (as well as paying public) and I want everyone to have a good time otherwise the whole idea around shows falls down. It is human nature that some exhibitors are better at engaging with the public than others.

Some shows are deliberately targetted at particular audiences so we have to take that into account.  I was in the fortunate position that the show I looked after was trying to inspire people with excellent modelling (though I disliked having to make judgements on someone's hard work).

Like Jerry I rather despair at a seeming accusation that things are too serious or too accurate. I want to be inspired, I want to know how I can improve or how someone has done something.

Cheers, Mike

[Bealman]

Yes. I have been involved in all aspects of the hobby over the years... club, exhibitions, etc, and have decided to keep schum here.

The ultimate exhibition must have been the MRJ exhibition in London in 1990, which, as far as I know, has never been repeated?

[Paddy]

Personally I would like to see a range of layouts at exhibitions.  Everything from Thomas "have a go" through to highly detailed models - something for everyone.

It does amuse me though that when I have been to exhibitions and there is a Hornby Dublo train set it is very popular.  Fine scale has its place but we ignore train sets to the detriment of this great hobby.

Kind regards

Paddy
Dream It | Believe It | Achieve It

[Bealman]

Agreed! Hornby Dublo three rail is a great crowd puller! 

[MikeDunn]

I am paying to see trains running on layouts, not for a static display;

Actually you are paying for hall hire, insurance, and reasonable expenses for the exhibitors.  The exhibitors are not getting paid to run a layout for the public - they give their time and effort free of charge.

Actually Mike - no.  This is something that organisers try & push at the public ...

You, as an exhibition manager, are paying for all that from the entry fees and stall rents you charge.

Me, as a member of the paying public, am paying to see what is in there, and if my expectations aren't met I won't be back.

The customer (me, and all the others who pay) is supposed to be King; and this is not the case for a number of exhibitors / exhibitions ... hence the various complaints here & elsewhere.

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree 

Mike

[colpatben]

Well.
I am just about to embark on my first exhibition with our club layout 'Ensbury', and I had no concept or expectation of how it will go. So this topic has been enlightening.

First and foremost this layout ideally needs four operators. Up line, Down line, Branch line and Goods sidings.
Main line operators at the back and Branch and Siding operators 'Front of House'.
I can now understand why the shy operators want to be In Back and I am struggling to recruit operators for the front because there are very few who have the knowledge to field questions and operate trains.
Do I therefore need a fifth knowledgeable person to be the ringmaster? not only to take questions but also to 'Bring On' the next bunch of trains.

Maybe it will just happen and all visitors will be impresses/happy with our efforts.

If you are in East Sussex please visit us and see how we do.

[fatso]

I guess if your not one of three categories  cat1.EM.cat2 finescale.cat 3 p4 your not welcome in the hobby I like playing trains I like the dcc side of things but hate scenic work with a passion being at the bottom works for me only one way to go UP.LOL.Mike

[red_death]

Actually Mike - no.  This is something that organisers try & push at the public ...

You, as an exhibition manager, are paying for all that from the entry fees and stall rents you charge.

Me, as a member of the paying public, am paying to see what is in there, and if my expectations aren't met I won't be back.

The customer (me, and all the others who pay) is supposed to be King; and this is not the case for a number of exhibitors / exhibitions ... hence the various complaints here & elsewhere.

You either accept that it is a community-type event where the customer is not king and all parties have a part to play or you expect "professional" quality entertainment - this begs the question would you be prepared to pay for it? If you are not prepared to pay for it why should you expect a "normal" business-customer relationship?

Even at minimum wage for a small show you could easily double the costs of putting the show on and therefore the entry price.

I think there has to be some sense of reality here - all to easy to say the customer is king without thinking about the impact on the exhibitors. If the exhibitors no longer enjoy it shows die and the public loses out hence why I said that things have to work for all involved.

[MikeDunn]

If the exhibitors no longer enjoy it shows die

If the paying public - and let's be honest, if they didn't pay only the little shows would happen & that just in Club rooms - don't consider they get value for money, they won't turn up & pay, and shows die ...

At the end of the day - no money = no show for the exhibitors to attend ...  The paying public have to receive value, and that is what we do not get from a number of exhibitors ...  Sadly, the 'bad apples' are always remembered & the 'good eggs' quickly forgotten.  It is up to exhibition managers to winnow out the bad from the good, and this appears not to happen, given the re-appearance of said 'bad apples' time & again.

[NeMo]

I thought the article referred to in RM was mostly a load of tosh - the comparison between a few hours long concert and a 2 day show being particularly inappropriate.

Couldn't agree more. As exhibitors you don't have a few hours to make a positive impression. You've got 30 seconds, tops. In the hubbub at a busy show, I'll spend about that amount of time looking at something, and if there's nothing moving and no-one ready to engage with me, I'll move on. If the scenery is really good I might take some photos. But then my memory of that layout will be a photo or two, not a dynamic model railway.

As for the implication that we should all wear shirts and ties to satisfy the author's views of smart 

Actually, presentation matters. This hobby has a bit of a beard-full-of-breadcrumbs reputation, and part of that is that the people 'front of house', engaging with the public, are anoraky sorts of people and a few don't seem to even prioritise hygiene let alone sartorial presentation. I don't particularly like wearing a suit, but I understand that by wearing a suit I give off a certain image that I wouldn't give wearing M&S jeans and a tatty Millets shirt. I'm not saying layout operators should dress like a bank manager, but they should certainly look smart and be well groomed, if not for themselves then as ambassadors of the hobby.

Like Jerry I rather despair at a seeming accusation that things are too serious or too accurate. I want to be inspired, I want to know how I can improve or how someone has done something.

I do agree. I like seeing layouts that inspire me, regardless of era, scale or even country. I'm almost never inspired by attention to detail though. What gets me is if the layout portrays a place and time so effectively I think I'm there. Since I model railways because of my strong memories of visiting loco sheds with my dad, this appeal to memory is really important to me.

But let me be honest about something. I don't go to shows for the layouts. I go for the trade support. I go looking for bargains from the box shifters and secondhand deals from the minor traders without websites. I go looking for those little bits and bobs from the etched brass and whitemetal merchants, and the bags of scenic materials you never see at your local hobby shop.

Layouts are, to me, icing on the cake. Nice icing, welcome icing, but icing nonetheless. So long as the layouts are busy and well presented, I don't really care much whether the little pannier tank has the wrong GWR symbol for the year that the cinema posters at the station would seem to suggest.

Cheers, NeMo

[oreamnos]

[edit] if I were new to the hobby and came to a show I'm afraid a load of brightly coloured plastic things thrown at a board would simply reinforce that view, not encourage me to take up the hobby as a serious craft based pastime.
I do think there is room at any well balanced show for more entry level exhibits but they should be in the minority, the majority of exhibits should be aspirational, showing the hobby off at its best.
[edit]
This is a wonderful hobby and a very broad church so there is room for all schools of thought.

Jerry

I actually enjoyed your post, Jerry, and especially the reminder that the hobby has room for everyone.  To that end, there may be some who, upon seeing a "load of brightly coloured plastic things thrown at a board," might actually be more encouraged to have a go in the hobby than upon seeing a so-called "aspirational" layout.  The aspirational layouts which inspire some might be completely discouraging to somebody else.  To say exhibits should be "showing the hobby off at its best," well, what is "best" is different for every modeller and also every member of the paying public who attends a show.

We all have are own biases and points of view on what is best and what constitutes an aspirational layout.  When we (i.e., modellers) exhibit at shows it may be wise to bury our biases and concentrate on just being the entertainment we were invited to be.

Matt

[red_death]

The aspirational layouts which inspire some might be completely discouraging to somebody else. 

Hi Matt

I find this difficult to understand - it smacks of defeatism (or even dare I say it an unwillingness to learn/practice etc).

There is no point in deluding ourselves that we will be good at everything (many layouts actually draw upon lots of little bits and pieces mastered by different people with different skills), but equally we shouldn't throw our hands up in the air upon seeing something well-done and think that we could never reach that level.  Surely well-done modelling should inspire curiousity - how did the maker do that? It is often a relatively simple answer!

NeMo - basic hygiene OK, but on the rest we start to get a bit subjective eg I regularly wear jeans and a black heavy metal t-shirt, does that make me unpresentable? To some it might...no smart answers!

Cheers, Mike