Dapol (re)announce HST Protype train - open for pre-orders

[davidinyork]

Why don't they just do like Revolution Trains did and offer it as fixed formation sets rather than in a 'bitty' format like this.

Because of feedback they got when they initially announced the model

" In response to feedback received after our initial announcement we are now producing the model as separate packs and making the power cars available as a twin pack"

Offer several clear options then, as Revolution Trains did with the Pendolino.

What Dapol have done is to leave the buyer to work out which power car livery goes with the whole train and which doesn't, and which unnecessary coaches they have to buy to get a typical set.

Sensible options could have been:
Power Cars Only
Four car set (power cars and two trailers)
Full set (power cars and eight trailers)

[davidinyork]

Based on the information on the Dapol website that they are in departmental livery something that wasn't used on the full train.

Where does it actually say that the full train wasn't used in departmental service, and that the power cars never ran on the full train with full yellow ends?

When I was looking into this I couldn't find it anywhere simply stated - took quite a bit of hunting around for photos and asking others to be confident of the answer.

[PaulCheffus]

Based on the information on the Dapol website that they are in departmental livery something that wasn't used on the full train.

Where does it actually say that the full train wasn't used in departmental service, and that the power cars never ran on the full train with full yellow ends?

When I was looking into this I couldn't find it anywhere simply stated - took quite a bit of hunting around for photos and asking others to be confident of the answer.

Hi

The power cars were taken into departmental service after the full train was disassembled. Some of the coaches finding other roles.

Cheers

Paul

[davidinyork]

The power cars were taken into departmental service after the full train was disassembled. Some of the coaches finding other roles.

That doesn't make it clear about the livery.

And on the advance order pages (w.g. https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder?product_id=3198) that phrase you quote isn't mentioned (and neither are the prices, and the expected delivery date is Q4 2018)

[RailGooner]

No NATIONAL-PRESERVATION have used it for a long time and way before Dapol ever thought of the model.

Also its their Prototype HST they are using for detail, scanning etc. so almost certainly the other way round.

Well, someone on there has invented it then - I've read all the books dealing with it, and have a number of the promotional booklets produced when it was new, and this term is never used.

'Their' prototype HST? The National Preservation form doesn't own any HST. - it's just a forum. The surviving prototype power car belongs to the NRM and is on long-term loan to the 125 group. Most of the trailers survive, but all heavily modified (five of them are in use with Mainline TOCs).

That is not in doubt, however it is clear that it was not Dapol who invented the name as suggested earlier in this thread..

Sorry, not clear to me. If the National Preservation forum refer to the Prototype HST as the 'HST (P)' and Dapol refer to it as the 'HST-P' I see a difference there. And so I can't accept that the National Preservation forum invented the term 'HST-P' and Dapol are merely following their lead. Rather, it seems to me from that evidence that Dapol indeed did invent the term 'HST-P'. The end result is I'm even more confused than I was a two dozen or so posts back.

For anyone looking at the information a manufacturer publishes on a product, and finding that information sufficient to immediately determine that is/not the product they want, then I am happy for that individual. For one who finds the manufacturer's published information frustratingly insufficient, I sympathize with that individual rather than taking umbrage with that individual.

Thirty years a go there was a real financial cost to publishing information. Info would usually have been published in a paper medium with costs associated to the drafting, printing, and distribution, of that media. So a manufacturer might have to be selective in the info they made available to the prospective customer.

Today the comparative cost of getting that info to the prospective customer is, thanks to the internet, a fraction of what it was. So I'm much less forgiving these days when a manufacturer - any manufacturer of any product - provides poor/confusing/inaccurate/incomplete information.

When Dapol launched the Digest, I joined up straight away. I was very involved and posted frequently. But the Digest was never what Dapol promised it would be. Dapol were too often glacially slow in responding to posts, and mostly ignored helpful and constructive criticism and corrections.

I love my Dapol Class 66s - and often post on here in defence of them when some 'bash' critique them unfavorably. I love my Dapol 67s. I love my Dapol HST. I love my Dapol Mk3s and Collets. I love my Dapol FEAs/ICAs/IKAs/IWAs/JNAs/KIAs/ZZAs. And how could I not love my Dapol 68(!)? I'd love a Prototype HST for it's historical significance - the same justification for my owning a Dapol 9F 'Evening Star', which I love.

However I find Dapol's communication frustrating at best. I defend my right to express that frustration in polite English. They are all big boys and girls at Dapol and I'm sure they can take a polite critique or too in public. If they can't, they oughtn't be trading to the public.

My final comment on this subject would be to say that for anyone buying this model I genuinely hope you enjoy it. But I'm out.

[NeMo]

Another one here who's not Dapol-bashing.

My little skit about the Dapol board meeting was simply my way of discussing what often look like really odd decisions. Specifically:

(1) Dapol sometimes come up with models that are timely, well-made and popular -- the 'Western', the Pannier tanks, the 'bubble car' railcars, the Silver Bullets, the Dogfish wagons, the Mk3 coaches and many others. Lots of people wanted them, either because they were absent from N gauge or existed only in the form of old and inadequate models from other manufacturers. Dapol are more than capable of "joined-up" thinking. For example, the 14xx loco alongside GWR autocoaches; the diesel hydraulics alongside milk tanks and ex-GWR parcels stock; and the various GWR 4-6-0s alongside the Collett coaches.

(2) When they put their mind to it, their attention to detail and the quality of the paintwork is second to none. The Silver Bullets, 9Fs and 'Westerns' have some of the best weathering I've ever seen on mass market products. They seem to have a willingness to run up a wide range of liveries quicker than Farish, so we get all sorts of lovely train packs and collectable locos, from the Wrexham & Shropshire 68s 67s and Mk3 coaches through to the goodness knows how many versions of the 73s we've seen over the years.

And yet, and yet, we sometimes see the most remarkable clangers. HSTs with iffy versions of the 'Executive' livery and a version of 'Western Enterprise' in all-over maroon without yellow ends that never existed.

I honestly couldn't give a rip what Dapol call their prototype HST on their website or packaging. To get worked up over that strikes me as looking for something to complain about!

What I do suspect is that Dapol are assuming many people will buy a 'token' formation, just as many people run their HSTs with just two or three carriages simply because that's all their layout can hold. I'd have thought that's their rationale here -- let people buy a couple power cars and a couple coaches, and leave the die-hard fans to figure out the extra coaches. There are countless books about the HST out there, so getting this sorted out really isn't that big of a deal, surely?

Cheers, NeMo

[davidinyork]

There are countless books about the HST out there, so getting this sorted out really isn't that big of a deal, surely?

Surprisingly really, but there aren't acutally many which give in-depth detail, and of those the one which some regard as the most informtive has to be treated with caution as it has a lot of mistakes.

[PaulCheffus]

The power cars were taken into departmental service after the full train was disassembled. Some of the coaches finding other roles.

That doesn't make it clear about the livery.

And on the advance order pages (w.g. https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder?product_id=3198) that phrase you quote isn't mentioned (and neither are the prices, and the expected delivery date is Q4 2018)

Hi

Does to me due to the departmental status and on the very link you supplied

• Power Car Pack 2: Departmental (overall yellow ends DMBs: 975812 & 975813)

I also suggest you revisit your link re prices as they are very clear to see.

I won't be posting any further on this subject as it's clear you have an agend and it doesn't matter what I say.

Cheers

Paul

[davidinyork]

Does to me due to the departmental status and on the very link you supplied

• Power Car Pack 2: Departmental (overall yellow ends DMBs: 975812 & 975813)

I also suggest you revisit your link re prices as they are very clear to see.

I won't be posting any further on this subject as it's clear you have an agend and it doesn't matter what I say.

Sorry, but nowhere does it say that this livery didn't appear until they were in departmental use and the whole train had been disbanded - the 'departmental' reference could just as well refer to the renumbering.

The only price on that page I can see is '£0.00'

Why is it that certain people on here accuse others of having an 'agenda' for posting something which they don't agree with? What do you think my 'agenda' is? If you are going to start making that sort of accusation then you should at least justify it or it comes across as 'bashing' someone who you don't happen to agree with.

I have absolutely nothing against Dapol - they have produced many excellent models, and I would just like to see them get the promotion for this one right as that increases the chances of it actually being produced. When it was announced the first time, I read all the material carefully and pointed out some mistakes to them on their own forum, as did others. They abandoned plans for the model a while afterwards (in part because of not enough expressions of interest), and have then re-advertised without correcting the mistakes which were pointed out to them. Do you really think that demonstrates a sensible approach to advertising a product?

[NeMo]

Surprisingly really, but there aren't acutally many which give in-depth detail, and of those the one which some regard as the most informtive has to be treated with caution as it has a lot of mistakes.

Really? I'm looking at p.21 of HST Silver Jubilee, and it says quite clearly that the basic prototype train order consisted of four TFs, four TSs, and two refreshment vehicles, the TRUK and the TRSB. A typical train in deployment (p.24) consisted of a 2+7 formation, namely TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TRSB, TS, TS.

Cheers, NeMo

[davidinyork]

Really? I'm looking at p.21 of HST Silver Jubilee, and it says quite clearly that the basic prototype train order consisted of four TFs, four TSs, and two refreshment vehicles, the TRUK and the TRSB. A typical train in deployment (p.24) consisted of a 2+7 formation, namely TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TRSB, TS, TS.

As I understand it, the original intention was for loco-hauled and HST Mk3s to be the same, and the test order was planned to allow for an 8-car HST (plus power cars), and two other carriages to be tested in other loco-hauled formation. Two of the coaches disappeared early on as they were taken to become part of the royal train, and the buffets were built later than the open coaches, so a re-bogied Mk1 buffet was used initially until they were ready.

As the project evolved, the concept of using standard loco-hauled coaches as the trailers was abandoned (and some changes were made to the prototype as a result of this, e.g. fitting one of the power cars with a 3-phase ETS alternator). This led to the differences between HST and LHCS mk3s in the production versions - converting between the two is possible and has been done in both directions, but it involves fairly major work.

[PaulCheffus]

Does to me due to the departmental status and on the very link you supplied

• Power Car Pack 2: Departmental (overall yellow ends DMBs: 975812 & 975813)I

I also suggest you revisit your link re prices as they are very clear to see.

I won't be posting any further on this subject as it's clear you have an agend and it doesn't matter what I say.

Sorry, but nowhere does it say that this livery didn't appear until they were in departmental use and the whole train had been disbanded - the 'departmental' reference could just as well refer to the renumbering.

The only price on that page I can see is '£0.00'

Why is it that certain people on here accuse others of having an 'agenda' for posting something which they don't agree with? What do you think my 'agenda' is? If you are going to start making that sort of accusation then you should at least justify it or it comes across as 'bashing' someone who you don't happen to agree with.

I have absolutely nothing against Dapol - they have produced many excellent models, and I would just like to see them get the promotion for this one right as that increases the chances of it actually being produced. When it was announced the first time, I read all the material carefully and pointed out some mistakes to them on their own forum, as did others. They abandoned plans for the model a while afterwards (in part because of not enough expressions of interest), and have then re-advertised without correcting the mistakes which were pointed out to them. Do you really think that demonstrates a sensible approach to advertising a product?

Hi

Ok how about you clearly know more about this train than you are letting on from some of your other comments on this thread.

From your link price is quite clear



That's it from me.

Cheers

Paul

[NeMo]

Really? I'm looking at p.21 of HST Silver Jubilee, and it says quite clearly that the basic prototype train order consisted of four TFs, four TSs, and two refreshment vehicles, the TRUK and the TRSB. A typical train in deployment (p.24) consisted of a 2+7 formation, namely TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TRSB, TS, TS.

As I understand it, the original intention was for loco-hauled and HST Mk3s to be the same, and the test order was planned to allow for an 8-car HST (plus power cars), and two other carriages to be tested in other loco-hauled formation. Two of the coaches disappeared early on as they were taken to become part of the royal train, and the buffets were built later than the open coaches, so a re-bogied Mk1 buffet was used initially until they were ready.

As the project evolved, the concept of using standard loco-hauled coaches as the trailers was abandoned (and some changes were made to the prototype as a result of this, e.g. fitting one of the power cars with a 3-phase ETS alternator). This led to the differences between HST and LHCS mk3s in the production versions - converting between the two is possible and has been done in both directions, but it involves fairly major work.

Which is interesting and all, but I thought that you were asking "which coaches do I need to run with HSDT power cars". Well, there's the answer. From what Dapol is offering, you'll want a single two-pack of first class coaches, 1.5 two-packs of second class coaches, and the two-pack with the catering vehicles.

You can criticise the coaches as/when they arrive in terms of livery, detailing, etc., but for casual modellers wanting to run the HSDT on their layouts, the above information would seem to be adequate. Or am I missing something?

Cheers, NeMo

[davidinyork]

I get this:

[davidinyork]

Which is interesting and all, but I thought that you were asking "which coaches do I need to run with HSDT power cars". Well, there's the answer. From what Dapol is offering, you'll want a single two-pack of first class coaches, 1.5 two-packs of second class coaches, and the two-pack with the catering vehicles.

I knew what I needed - the objections I have are that it's necessary to buy two extra coaches which aren't needed in order to get all the ones which are needed, and that the confusing way it's being advertised could well lead to fewer expressions of interest, which in turn could affect whether it's viable or not.